jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-05 06:14 PM
Break On should be the deafult

Please make Break On the default mode.

Les
(KiX Master)
2005-08-05 06:17 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

I disagree, should be off unless explicitly set on.

jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-05 06:23 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

If KiXtart's primary functionality was still processing login scripts, I would agree. The tide, IMHO, seems to have shifted towards administrative scripting where the admin or system runs the script making forced logoffs more a nuisance.

Bryce
(KiX Supporter)
2005-08-05 06:55 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

i so love those, quick and dirty, kix scripts... go to close the command window and log my self out... opps!

jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-05 07:06 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Hence the reason for this now! I've done this four times in the past two days. Between running other people's code, running dynamically generated code and trying to get ultraedit to work with kix32 /d, I've had it. (BTW, I found that if you keep Word open with even a modified blank file, during the forced shutdown Word will prompt to save the file. Click Cancel to maintain some diginity and only have to reopen about half of your programs.)

Bryce
(KiX Supporter)
2005-08-05 07:10 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Quote:

Hence the reason for this now! I've done this four times in the past two days. Between running other people's code, running dynamically generated code and trying to get ultraedit to work with kix32 /d, I've had it. (BTW, I found that if you keep Word open with even a modified blank file, during the forced shutdown Word will prompt to save the file. Click Cancel to maintain some diginity and only have to reopen about half of your programs.)




notepad, with changes that need to be saved will do the same


Les
(KiX Master)
2005-08-05 08:35 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

All of my little test snippets of code have those two little words on the first line. I mean, how hard can it be to type break on?

Since I test with different version of KiX all the time, a change in default would still bite me if not tfor those two little words.

Break off is legacy, grandfathered in. I tried to have the default for NoVarsInStrings changed to get coders to switch over but that got shot down too.

You should switch to using WKiX. AFAIK break has been broken on it for quite some time.


jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-05 08:55 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

I'd argue that Break On is different from NoVars and Explicit in that it's an interpreter environmental directive rather than an interpreter processing directive. (or something like that) In other words, it has no impact on the way code is written or interpreted. Whether or not this is ON or OFF by default wouldn't affect any of the kix code in existance today whereas NoVars and Explict could have a significant impact.

Infact, compared to the setoption()'s, the Break directive is implemented by default, whereas the others need to be turned on to implement their respective action. If this command were SetOption(Break,[On|Off]), the command would be reversed where SetOption(Break,On) would cause a logoff on interuption. By that logic, it's default state would be SetOption(Break,Off) where interuptions would not cause a logoff.


ShawnAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2005-08-05 08:57 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

I think Break Off should never have been made the default too - nothing more annoying than logging yourself off - I hate that. Prolly too late to change that default setting though - dunno. Unless Ruud just bit the bullet on it.

NTDOCAdministrator
(KiX Master)
2005-08-05 09:44 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Well if you used UltraEdit instead of Notepad you could use a hotkey to input Break On in your file right away before any testing. Can't find that option in ASE and KiXtarter but they might be there too.


jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-05 11:08 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

No, you don't understand. When I configure the tools to run kix32 /d, nothing displays... Close the window, get logged out. If Break On is the first line and I hit enter,all is fine but nothing is displayed to the console. Seperate issue I need to take up with them.

Richard H.Administrator
(KiX Supporter)
2005-08-08 09:39 AM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Reversing the default in a well established scripting language with who knows how many scripts out there that are depending on the defaults to be set just so is a very bad idea I'm sure you'd agree.

How about a compromise, with the break state settable with a command line switch, or even better via a registry value under HKCU\Software\KiXtart?

For your development environment/user you set the initial break state to "off" via the reg value, when you release to production the initial state will be the default "on".


jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-08 10:42 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Microsoft does this kind of stuff all of the time. (Think SP2 for a recent example.) Now, I'm not saying 2 wrongs make a right, but I do think that future releases can change fundamental features of how the program operates. This gives the end user the ability to upgrade at his own pace\discretion. I would expect though that the major revision number goto v5.x. Change is inevitable. [Jim steps down from his soap box.]

That said, I like the registry hack idea and I think that most would welcome such an easy solution.


NTDOCAdministrator
(KiX Master)
2005-08-09 11:18 AM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Quote:

No, you don't understand




Yes Jim I do understand, but was addressing a pun towards Shawn not your original request.

As to your request, sorry I don't agree with you. Yes I've been biten many times in the past by a few of the coders around here that love to turn it off, or hide the console or other behaviors that I don't care for, but I've learned to check and or code for it before ever trying their code.

Please do not take this personal as it is not meant to be, but as I see it changing the DEFAULT behavior of a program now used by 10's of thousands of users around the World in many even non English languages becuase 1 person is unable to adapt their coding behavior is a very poor reason for changing it.

That being said, I think perhaps Richard as usual has some good possible solutions that would accomodate both you and all the other users out there that don't have or experience the issue you describe.

As for Microsoft not sticking to standards, AMEN, but as you mention - 2 wrongs don't make a right. Microsoft though does go through a lot effort with many user groups when decisions are made that are going to affect all types of users (I know as I've participated in some of these groups in the past) They try to decide what is best for ALL users as they see it, which does not always make everyone happy - myself included.


LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2005-08-09 12:43 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Quote:


Please do not take this personal as it is not meant to be, but as I see it changing the DEFAULT behavior of a program now used by 10's of thousands of users around the World in many even non English languages becuase 1 person is unable to adapt their coding behavior is a very poor reason for changing it.





now now...
Ruud is unable to make the BREAK ON work in wkix32.exe and you say it's a users fault?

I have to be voting here with jim for the disablement of break by default.
I know it won't happen any time soon but I still pray for it.

BREAK can be OFF in logon environment but in normal scripts, it should default to ON.


Les
(KiX Master)
2005-08-09 03:02 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

The reg hack is a really REALLY bad idea. With that, anyone could hack themself the ability to subvert the completion of a script. BAD IDEA!

Richard H.Administrator
(KiX Supporter)
2005-08-09 04:25 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Quote:

The reg hack is a really REALLY bad idea. With that, anyone could hack themself the ability to subvert the completion of a script. BAD IDEA!




You have a very good point, though it's not iredeemably bad. The hack sets the default - if the script has "BREAK OFF" explicitly set then it cannot be subverted.


jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-09 06:19 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Quote:


Please do not take this personal as it is not meant to be, but as I see it changing the DEFAULT behavior of a program now used by 10's of thousands of users around the World in many even non English languages becuase 1 person is unable to adapt their coding behavior is a very poor reason for changing it.




When the 10's of thousands of users come here to complain, forward there complaints to my PM. The way I see it, I wouldn't have poor coding behavior [implied] if this feature wasn't enabled by default.

Consider the changes from ASP to ASP.NET. These require complete rewrites of entire web applications costing millions upon millions of dollars. Companies will eventually rewrite their apps when they are ready to upgrade to ASP.NET Regarding KiX, existing 4.x code will continue to work fine. When they're ready to upgrade to 5.x, they'll need to change one line of code. Again, change is inevitable. We deal with it every day in the interest of obtaining/providing a better product.

And I still like the reg hack as an interim solution.


LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2005-08-09 06:48 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

I don't as it requires you to set in on each machine and when you are working on code that runs only once...
like beta stuff that mostly would benefit from break being on.

and, nobody needs to change their scripts at all.
changing the default of break does not break any scripts!
they will function just as before.


NTDOCAdministrator
(KiX Master)
2005-08-09 10:13 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

It breaks it in the sense that those using KIX32.EXE as a logon script the user would now be able to kill kix32 without it logging off the user. To me that is breaking the script.

NTDOCAdministrator
(KiX Master)
2005-08-09 10:17 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Not implying you have poor coding skills. But I do notice that each time you post a suggestion you do approach it with a very strong passion that is not satisfied until the topic dies of age or you get your way. Were you a politician in another job?

I guess I'll fall back to previous answers then. Change it anyway you want, I can code around it.


jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-09 10:36 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

My passion is fueled by my desire to see kixtart grow. It's a shame not many take advantage of it. They don't die b/c of my lack interest...

And what fun would a one sided discussion be anyway?


LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2005-08-09 10:40 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

well, still, it does not break the script in the means that not a single function of the script is altered.
it performs just as it has before.

only the interpreters behavior would be changed.
and that change can be turned back too with a simple "break off"


NTDOCAdministrator
(KiX Master)
2005-08-09 11:45 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

ROFL I already gave up Lonk. You and Jim win as far as I'm concerned. Not a big enough issue that would affect me directly to be that worried if Ruud did change it.

Many other items I would like to see added or updated


LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2005-08-10 01:04 AM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

sure, but I hate those stupid best practise comments on BREAK ON when it doesn't even work.

Richard H.Administrator
(KiX Supporter)
2005-08-10 09:17 AM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Quote:

sure, but I hate those stupid best practise comments on BREAK ON when it doesn't even work.




Well then get it fixed

Changing the default action of every script that's out there to fix another problem is not the right way to go about it.

I can see no reason why the "BREAK" statement should not affect the kill settings of WKIX32. Ok, so if there is no console so you cannot install the SetConsoleCtrlHandler() to deal with control-C which is fair enough. However that is no reason that the "logoff when killed" action should not be affected by the BREAK statement.

You need to petition Ruud (again?) to get wkix32 fixed.


LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2005-08-10 12:58 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

I gave up when he last time, once again told me that it can't be fixed.
and no, it's not about having console.
I posted example code on the board and it surely had console.
wkix32.exe has something so different that it just doesn't worky.


Co
(MM club member)
2005-08-10 10:54 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

MMM, interesting discussion...

I don't like the default Break OFF either but typing Break ON isn't a big issue to me. And Yes, Word works very good to prevent a log off .


LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2005-08-10 11:21 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

so does notepad
fire up notepad, type some sh*t and you have logoff blocker


NTDOCAdministrator
(KiX Master)
2005-08-10 11:56 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

So if I post here again, will that make this page 3 of comments or bump up my post count?

Ruud, sorry to make lite of this, but if you get time perhaps you could comment on this to put an end to this thread.


Les
(KiX Master)
2005-08-11 01:27 AM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

I can put an end to it by closing it.

jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-17 06:13 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

This topic was temporarily side-tracked into another forum at this topic.

There still seems to be interest in debating the topic so please continue it here.


LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2005-08-17 06:40 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

so, is it ruuds laziness if he can't make the "break off" default only during login?
outside logon procession, it would default to "break on"


jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-17 06:40 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

The discussion of this suggestion has been based heavily on personal preference. Not sure if it's possible to boil it down to something simpler and measurable, but perhaps would should try to head in that direction so as to provide a better reason than "I don't like this feature" or "I don't care about this feature".

For instance, in an effort to determine what the default value of Break Off adds with present day KiXtart scripts, can we answer the question of whether KiX is used still primarily as a login script processor, or for admin scripting? Not based on opinion, but a more scientific measure (a Poll?).

Perhaps then even generating a list of PROS and CONS so wen can factor in other considerations, even though items in such a list generally lack individual weight in relation to one another.

We currently have no system that I'm aware of for adding contreversial suggestions to the suggestions round-up at the top of this forum. But maybe this approach can give Ruud the information he needs to make an informed decision.


ShawnAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2005-08-17 06:43 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

I dont think there is anything more to debate really. Everyone agrees that getting logged off is annoying as hell. Everyone agrees that Break On probably should have been made the default setting from day one. Everyone has resigned themselves to the fact that it prolly won't change, and that we'll just have to live with it from now until forever ;0)

[edit]

ok - i guess i'm being defeatist here.


Bryce
(KiX Supporter)
2005-08-17 06:48 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Quote:

so, is it ruuds laziness if he can't make the "break off" default only during login?
outside logon procession, it would default to "break on"




this is a good point... well not that Ruud is lazy!!!

Ruud added a macro @LOGONMODE that is true if the script is running as a logon process, could not the "break" be coded the same way?

this keeps the default "break off" for logon scripts, but gives the admin script a "break on" enviroment.


jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-17 06:54 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Shawn, you paint with a wide brush! If this is the general consensus, then Iím willing to leave it at that. But does it get added to the suggestions round-up? If so, which approach?
-login scripts=Break Off vs. admin scripts=Break On
I like Joell's latest post: login scripts=Break Off vs. admin scripts=Break On, but that could cause confusion.

-Default for all scripts is Break Off

-Registry key to control Break Off on development machines


I don't think we're out of the woods yet.


ShawnAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2005-08-17 06:59 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Indeed, it looks like you and Bryce (or Lonk idk now) came up with a smashing (almost perfectly backward compatible) solution. If @LOGONMODE = 1 then BREAK OFF is the default, if not, then BREAK ON is the default. Might be mildly confusing to the un-initiated at first, but definitely a nice idea.

jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-17 07:08 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Devine KiX Wisdom = Select * From Users Where 'Posts'>=15000

LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2005-08-17 07:17 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

hmm...
not much to select from...

instead of registry setting... where it could also be, I'd like the idea of setting "break off" on the commandline when I want it.


maciep
(Korg Regular)
2005-08-17 07:20 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

I would rather not have it behave one way for logon scripts and another for all other scripts. I don't even use break off for my logon script. I say either change it across the board or leave it as is - but don't mix and match.

I guess "Polls" are not longer an option on this board?


NTDOCAdministrator
(KiX Master)
2005-08-17 07:27 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Sure they are, you may or may not be able to post one, but they still are available.

Witto
(MM club member)
2005-08-18 02:50 AM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Looking at the last posts, why not add
Code:

If NOT @LOGONMODE
Break On
Else
Break Off
EndIf


on top of all of your scripts?


ShawnAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2005-08-18 02:58 AM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

well, its not so much a matter of what gets added. mostly everyone (when they remember) put BREAK ON at the top ... its when you forget to add it - thats kinda what we're discussing - if we forget to add it, what should the default be - we're all saying the default should be BREAK ON (not BREAK OFF).

Chris S.
(MM club member)
2005-08-18 03:07 AM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Quote:

Indeed, it looks like you and Bryce (or Lonk idk now) came up with a smashing (almost perfectly backward compatible) solution. If @LOGONMODE = 1 then BREAK OFF is the default, if not, then BREAK ON is the default. Might be mildly confusing to the un-initiated at first, but definitely a nice idea.




I love this idea. I have to disagree with Shawn, however, what IS (more than) mildly confusing to the unitiated is getting logged off when they didn't explicitly tell KiX to do so. It confused me when I first started with KiX.


jtokach
(Seasoned Scripter)
2005-08-18 04:57 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

As is often the case, it would boil down to users not reading the manual. One would hope that a user using KiX for both admins scripts AND logon scripts would understand the differing behavior. If they are only running admin scripts (the majority of newbies???) they would not experience any logoffs. [that's an improvement] If the majority of newbs start with logon scripts, then they'd be in the same boat they are now; close the window, get logged out by default. [that's status quo]

This solution does seem to offer the best of both worlds.


ADynes
(Starting to like KiXtart)
2005-11-14 03:14 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

Quote:

Can't find that option in ASE and KiXtarter but they might be there too.



I added this option at the request of a couple users so if you check this off in the options screen it will add a BREAK=ON whenever you start a new script.

http://www.kixtart.org/ubbthreads/showfl...;o=&fpart=1

-Allan.


Stevie
(Starting to like KiXtart)
2005-11-29 05:23 PM
Re: Break On should be the deafult

ASE uses script templates instead of hard-coding specific bits of code. If you want BREAK ON, then put that in your default kix template.