Everybody has the freedome "how to distribute his or her software".
The amount of time necessary for development isn't in our opinion a reason
for changing the status of distribution.
Mostly we see two versions: free/shareware and commercial one with more
capabilities. First one to get people's interest and the second one
for a really reducing of time with more possibilities.

We agree with Shawn writing a kixtart specific (niche) editor surely
demonstrates a passion for kixtart.

Mostly a big problem by commercial products can be "management with not
pay for it". More difficult is such product for consultents which are
working in different organization. Also a problem can be that new soft-
ware must passed in some organizations very heavy acceptation procedu-
re brefore they can be used. A default - already available - program
is much easier to use.
greetings.

But well, yes, software distribution is always a matter of feeling : some prefer to share it freely, other sell it, depends of the people i think, but as always, and you are right Shawn, when someone do a great thing, it's always a matter of passion, or love too.

Who said this thread won't be a matter of passion ?

-Shawn

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Shawn ]

We have take a closer look at KiXscripts editor beta 1 and
we have some remarks and questions about it.

• change during the installation process the 'Start Menu Folder' to
  'KiXscripts Editor'.

• the installation process install files on different places. Can the in-
  stallation process be modified for using only ONE directory for all required
  files.
  .
  Also a lot of settings are hold in the HKCU part of the registry. Can
  you make it possible that KiXscripts editor can start without this re-
  gistry part?
  Registry info:
  

  code:

  ---

  
  REGEDIT4
  [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\RWK Systems]
  [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\RWK Systems\KiXScript Editor]
  [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\RWK Systems\KiXScript Editor\Preferences]
  "ID"="1"
  "ViewToolBar"="1"
  "ViewTabs"="1"
  "LineNum"=dword:00000001
  "WhiteSpace"=dword:00000000
  "TabSize"=dword:00000005
  "AutoIndentMode"=dword:00000002
  "KixPath"=""
  "ScriptPath"=""
  "MRUSize"="4"
  "ColorComments"=dword:00008000
  "ColorKeywords"=dword:00ff0000
  "ColorNumbers"=dword:00000000
  "ColorOperators"=dword:000000ff
  "ColorStrings"=dword:00800080
  "ColorText"=dword:00000000
  "StyleComments"=dword:00000002
  "StyleKeywords"=dword:00000001
  "StyleNumbers"=dword:00000000
  "StyleOperators"=dword:00000000
  "StyleStrings"=dword:00000000
  "StyleText"=dword:00000000
  "StyleFont"="Courier New"
  "StyleFontSize"=dword:0000000a
  "ExecuteConfirm"="1"
  "ScriptWindowPersist"="False"
  "MainLeft"="-60"
  "MainTop"="-60"
  "MainWidth"="12120"
  "MainHeight"="8700"
  [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\RWK Systems\KiXScript Editor\Preferences\MRU]
  "MRUInit"=dword:00000001
  "MRUFile1"="C:\\work\\cleanup.kix"
  "MRUFile2"=""
  "MRUFile3"=""
  "MRUFile4"=""
  "MRUFile5"=""
  "MRUFile6"=""
  "MRUFile7"=""
  "MRUFile8"=""
  "MRUFile9"=""
  

  ---

• during the installation you can create file associations with .kix
  and .scr files. Process change actual settings without looking for
  possible other associations. So possible associations like "kix32 run" and
  "kix32 run with debug" - which we are also using - are becoming unavailable.
  Possibilities:
  - NO associations exist. Create default ones by KiXscripts Editor installation
  process. f.e. .kix/.scr/kixfile
  - YES associations exist. Search for edit part and modified it to KiXscripts Editor.
  Other relations will be unchanged.

• generating of "Variable List" too slow for an average script (= 971 lines with
  90 different keys).
  Our tool kixref can analyze it in 0.33 sec. This editor command was after
  15 minutes not completed and was closed.
  (we were testing our personal version of "cleanup.kix" script from our site)

  Output of KixRef:
  

  code:

  ---

  
   Kixref 4.00 (vs 2.18e)             (c) MCA - scripting@wanadoo.nl - 2000, 2001
   kixref  (vs 2.18e)    zx -> zxx
                         (pl=55 pw=150 (default))
          0.33  (sec)    (971 BOLD=[90:1515] SOURCE=971)
   (counters             90:1515)
   (keywords             b=2 c=19 f=22 l=2 m=7 v=38 ?=0 env=0 udf=0)
   (labels               gosub=0 goto=0)
   (blocks 146           do:until                 [2:2]
                         for|each:in|to:step|next [0|0:0|0:0|0]
                         function:endfunction     [0:0]
                         if:else:endif            [134:28:134]
                         select:case:endselect    [1:7:1]
                         while:loop               [9:9]
   )
  

  ---

  
  
• during the generating of "Variable List" it isn't possible to continue editing
  (another) script. Also the "Variable List" window stays on top.
  Can this be changed?

• default the linenumbers are starting with number 000 instead of 001.
  (by "windows properties" it can be changed, but in our opinion as default starting
  value it should be 001)

• we are missing the column numbers. Sometimes we want to make the
  same indentions. See f.e. an old and simple editor like EDIT.

• very interesting is the "keyboard" tab in "Windows Properties".
  Why is the "Windows Properties" not available on the "menu bar".

• other possible wizards can be:
  - color
  - SetFileAttr
  - SetOption

• how are you handling missing quotations, brackets, keywords, etc.?

• can an user influence the keyword tables? See f.e. TextPad possibilities.
  Possible something for a future release.

• in this version the help (also of items) are only online available.
  Please implement a short version for off-line situations.

The most renew idea is the "Wizards" part.

Another suggestion is to make KiX Editor Poll topic also available for
unregistered users. Simple for a poll a registration should not be necessary.
What are you missing in the specified editors?
What are the advantages of KiXscripts editor in comparison with those editors?

greetings.

This is such an interesting thread that I'd just love to put my $.02 in. My name is Steve Behrns and I'm the guy that actually wrote the KiXscripts Editor. I'd hate to see poor ol' Bob (my partner in crime) get blamed for issues that should rightfully be placed at my feet.

It seems that the main question here is "Why pay for something I can get for free?"

Unfortunately, I agree with everything that has been said on this topic (I really like to argue). However, every point here has at least some validity.

Notepad does exist on every machine but you can't really argue that you get the same feature set from it that you do from a dedicated script editor. Some of you diehard Kixtart scripters may see absolutely no value added over notepad. We did not write this editor for you.

When Bob and I discussed taking this project on our goal was simply to provide the kix community with a tool that would make kixtart scripting easier, and in however small a way, decrease the time necessary to produce scripts. All of the features and functions in the editor are geared exclusively toward the kix community. Someone knocked the editor on the fact that it didn't do other languages like Javascript, HTML, VB, C/C++, etc. It would take about 5 minutes to add syntax highlighting and intellisense for these languages as well. But, IMHO, the editor holds a lot more value than syntax highlighting and intellisense, which is why these languages haven't been included--our focus is kix.

Instead of listing what features I think are important I'll just leave it to you to decide if we've succeeded. Now, onto the money issue...

I'll paraphrase Shawn's argument (if I misrepresent your point please forgive me) to say that since Ruud has spent endless hours on a tool like this and charges nothing (until the careware of the latest version) that other tools that take advantage of his work should follow in the spirit of his work.

Ideologically, I agree with that. KiXscripts Editor is a trivial product compared to what Ruud has done with kix itself. However, we all have different passions and different motivations. We are not going to get rich off of this product. But if users are willing to pay for this product then that indicates to us that we're actually providing something of real value to the kix community. And for me, that's what gets me going.

On another note, most people (present company excluded ) don't do a lot of kix scripting at home for fun. Most people, in
my experience, use it at work to automate processes, etc. Getting their company to buy a product as inexpensive as this one is not really an issue for most people.

I'll post a new reply to MCA specifically regarding the critique of the editor itself as this is getting TOO LONG...sorry about that and thanks for your time.

Regards,

Steven Behrns
kixscripts.com

This is a response to your critique of the KiXscripts Editor. First of all, thanks so much for taking your time providing these comments. I've found them to be tremendously helpful. Now, onto my defense...

You made a large number of comments, just about all I agree with totally. Just to pick out a couple...

Your issues regarding the start menu, file associations at install, line and column numbers, and "off-line" help are all right on the money.

quote:

---

the installation process install files on different places. Can the in-
stallation process be modified for using only ONE directory for all required
files.

---

All the files installed go into the application directory with the exception of required DLL and OCX files which are added to the system directory.

quote:

---

Also a lot of settings are hold in the HKCU part of the registry. Can
you make it possible that KiXscripts editor can start without this re-
gistry part?

---

You then show a shot of all the preference listings under HKCU

Without these entries there is no way to capture user preferences regarding keyword/comment colors and styles, tab size, mru size, whether or not you want to view tabs or the toolbar, etc. Are you suggesting an option that doesn't write any preferences to the registry? To an INI file perhaps? I'm not quite sure what your underlying issue is.

quote:

---

generating of "Variable List" too slow for an average script (= 971 lines with
90 different keys).
Our tool kixref can analyze it in 0.33 sec. This editor command was after
15 minutes not completed and was closed.
(we were testing our personal version of "cleanup.kix" script from our site)

---

--AND--

quote:

---

during the generating of "Variable List" it isn't possible to continue editing
(another) script. Also the "Variable List" window stays on top.
Can this be changed?

---

The algorithm used to retrieve the list of variables is unbearably slow for large files, I agree 100%. This needs to be sped up significantly before the product leaves beta. I've never seen it take 15 minutes though even for large files. If possible could you send me the file and I'll give it a whirl?

As for the second point, we decided to make that window "stay on top" since if you click off of it it disappears behind the script editor itself and we found during Alpha testing that it confused people so we kept it on top.

quote:

---

other possible wizards can be:
- color
- SetFileAttr
- SetOption

---

We do have a color wizard already in there. The others are good ideas.

quote:

---

can an user influence the keyword tables? See f.e. TextPad possibilities.
Possible something for a future release.

---

The kix keywords and macros are hard-coded. But we've already got plans for custom keywords and intellisense based on an external text file. This could be useful for DOS commands, KixwinVB, or any number of things one wanted to add.

Thanks again, MCA, and if you or anyone has any more suggestions we'd love to hear them here or at the kixscripts.com forum where we have a topic dedicated to KiXscripts editor feature requests.

Take care all,

Steven Behrns
kixscripts.com

Don't see it as critique. Our input can be used input to make your product
better and your reactions (defense) prevent unwanted repeat of questions.
Also it give us a more clear point of view of your product.

Some additional input:

• "off-line" help
  we saw that the "online" help contains a great amount of additional infor-
  mation. Our suggestion for the "off-line" part was only to show the (parameter)
  format of requested command or function and any explanation of parameter
  isn't necessary at that point.
  
• preferences
  indeed we saw that the HKCU registry contains user preferences, which
  isn't a big problem for us. Some applications we know have the capability of
  exporting/importing preference settings to/from separate file. It prevents
  the need to use regedit for changing it.
  
• variable list
  so we mention we were using a private version of our published script
  cleanup.kix. Yet we have also verify the public version. You can
  download it from our site http://home.wanadoo.nl/scripting .

  Indeed it is slow for 'large' files, but it is a BETA release.
  

• variable list: on the top.
  Indeed it can be a little bit confused, when the window disappears behind
  the kixscripts editor but it should - in our opinion - not prevent other
  applications to become the top window.
  Possible that separate window can become a separate field-windows inside
  kixscripts editor, which will be initialized during starting phase (= open
  an existing file).
  

Steven, thanks for your reaction. We know comments and even questions makes
it much easier for a programmer to make the program better.

greetings.

When I say critique I didn't mean it to carry a negative connotation at all. I appreciate very much all of your time and effort in really evaluating it. All of your comments help us make a better product.

"Off-line" help:
I missed the fact that you were saying it should be a subset of the data found online with the basic syntax and maybe a quick one-line example. It's a good idea and will definitely be included--if not in the first release then shortly thereafter.

Preferences:
It's never occurred to me to put the preferences in a separate file. There would be a definite advantage in a situation where an admin moves to different offices and doesn't have the benefit of roaming profiles--or even if a consultant moves to different sites for different companies. Importing/Exporting preferences to a separate file would be great in that case. You've sold me.

Variable List:
I'll go ahead and try your cleanup.kix in the next day or so. I haven't tested it with a script this large. Should be fun.

Variable List (always on top):
Maybe if I included a minimize button you could keep it out of the way and running separately and still do other things like opening other scripts, etc. What do you think?

Thanks again. You've been very helpful.

Steven Behrns
kixscripts.com